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half-sibling marriage??

half-sibling marriage??

pluntsford (View posts)
Posted: 2 Aug 2011 9:52PM GMT
Classification: Query
What would be the possibility of a half-brother and half-sister marrying . . . each other?? I have what appears to be this situation and cannot seem to come to any other conclusion.

Would the church have allowed this??

Re: half-sibling marriage??

JOBaouab (View posts)
Posted: 2 Aug 2011 10:56PM GMT
Classification: Query
I don't think the Swedish clergy would have allowed this. Bear in mind that many of our ancestors had the same names.

Give specific references for the records which lead you to the assumption that half-siblings married each other.

Judy

Re: half-sibling marriage??

bohjohan (View posts)
Posted: 3 Aug 2011 6:18AM GMT
Classification: Query
Perhaps they were really step-siblings?

Or one of them just has the same name as a sibling of the other...

// Bo Johansson

Re: half-sibling marriage??

pluntsford (View posts)
Posted: 3 Aug 2011 6:33AM GMT
Classification: Query
I am still checking the records to see what else I can find, but on the surface, it looks as if a son from a first marriage married the daughter from the second. There's a number of records that I've compiled that raised this question. I'm being very careful to watch the dates (births, marriages, deaths) as I've discovered how often names are repeated.

It just didn't seem very likely, but I wanted to ask the question anyway. I am using the church records, mostly household examinations, birth and death. I have a couple of more records I want to see if I can find that may help to verify who's who. At this point, I'm confused enough to not even know how to word the question in a way that someone could hopefully begin to answer.

How often have you found errors in the records . . . other than transposing day and month?? I've found 2 records (household)for the same individual that is giving a birth date that doesn't seem to exist. I've thought that maybe this person was born in a different parish, but both mother's and father's families were in the parish (Mora)years past and forward, and I can find no record of moving in or out. I do find a record of a birth for the right name of both parents and child,in the correct year and in the right location but the day & month is different.

Re: half-sibling marriage??

JOBaouab (View posts)
Posted: 3 Aug 2011 4:07PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 3 Aug 2011 4:10PM GMT
I've fairly often found date errors in the household exams (because numbers are really hard to read if the writer scribbles, and most did), and I've found parish of birth errors from time to time. I have once seen an error in the SCB extract about the name of the father which didn't match the birth/baptism record about the name of the father.

On the whole, however, the records are accurate. Although the priests were human and made human errors, they seemed to be trying to do an accurate job.

I have been able to find people with the same given names and patronymics, and even the right birthdate (but not the right birthplace) or the right birthplace (but not the right birthdate). I have followed them backwards and forwards to identify them and they weren't the same people. The names are soooooooo common.

Is there some reason why you aren't regularly checking the marriage records? The full marriage records (not the extracts, perhaps) often have very detailed information which might help with your confusion. I've seen names of parents listed, for example, and the locations of the couple in the parish (or a nearby parish) should be listed, among other details.

Also, the household examination records usually have a comment about the banns and who the person is going to marry and where that person lived in the parish.

Remember that there were three banns for a marriage. The priest would have been reminded by anyone who objected that there couldn't be a marriage between siblings, and I think perhaps even step siblings would not be allowed as a spouse. A marriage between step-siblings (who grew up together in the same household) even in the U.S. today would be considered rather "icky", although perhaps they are allowed. It seems like incest to me, however, even without a blood tie. That is just my opinion, of course.

Judy

Re: half-sibling marriage??

pluntsford (View posts)
Posted: 3 Aug 2011 8:24PM GMT
Classification: Query
I can't thank you enough for all of the help you have provided.

In attempting to write out why I thought I had half-siblings marrying each other, I found my error. I was confusing Anna Persdotter with Anna Ersdotter.

I just flat missed it, and honestly I feel pretty stupid!! It didn't register until now that I had both the wife, Anna Persdotter and the step-sister, Anna Ersdotter in the same household at the same time. For the past 3 days, I've not been able to work on anything else, trying to figure this thing out, only to realize it was right there in front of me all the time.

Re: half-sibling marriage??

isulv (View posts)
Posted: 4 Aug 2011 1:21AM GMT
Classification: Query
After 1734 the church objections to marrying so-called "spiritual relatives", e.g. a baptismal witness to the child being baptized (many years later of course), were removed. What remained were a bar between marrying cousins (first cousins), but you could seek a dispensation (from "the King", in reality the county administration) and we've never seen such a request turned down. In the 1840's marriage between first cousins were allowed by law.

Neither the church nor the state have any objections to step-siblings marrying. In Sweden, we're very aware of who is family by blood and who isn't. A Ph.D.-student asked people if they owned a national dress, and if so, anyone they were related to owned one too. Lots of people said "no" but doing an indepth analysis she discovered that lots of husbands and wives had answered "no". When she contacted the informants they all told her unequivocally that they were not related to their spouses. In a family [familj] you need not be related by blood, but you must have blood-ties to your relatives [släkt].

In Sweden today, half-siblings can marry, but they do need special permission. The only ones who absolutely cannot marry today are basically parents and children (and that goes for grand-parents and grand-children etc. - straight up and down - too). Personally I find niece-uncle marriages a bit "iffy" but who am I to object when it's allowed by the Catholic church and has been practiced among European Royal and Imperial families (though there was one case in the 17th century when they went a bit far: a Spanish king married his sister's daughter, and then their son did the same thing...it wasn't a very successful marriage from an offspring-producing angle).

Ingela

Re: half-sibling marriage??

ghagberg163 (View posts)
Posted: 5 Aug 2011 1:16AM GMT
Classification: Query
Drawing only from my own family research, I have to conclude that many of those "no" answers would just be 'wishful thinking'.
With generations of large families in a rural area, it would have been very difficult to avoid marrying a blood relative.
Would the average person living in the 1700's & 1800's be aware of their 'släkt' beyond a couple of generations?

Gerry

Re: half-sibling marriage??

isulv (View posts)
Posted: 5 Aug 2011 12:16PM GMT
Classification: Query
They certainly would. The more a family stayed in one place, the more they'd know about their relatives. They may have been a little muddled about exact degrees - well, were the people over at farm X fourth or fifth cousins? - but they'd know who they were related to at all and if it was close or far removed.

It wasn't only for marriage purposes, it was so that you'd know about inheritances and rights at property sales (you couldn't sell land to anyone you weren't related to without a massive amount of red tape). And villages and parishes were ruled by village and parish councils, and there you had to know who to ally yourself with and who were your "natural" enemies.

But in Sweden you didn't trust only your "släkt", your neighbours - whether related or not - were often at least as important (witness all these god-parents who were quite often neighbours).

Ingela

Re: half-sibling marriage??

isulv (View posts)
Posted: 5 Aug 2011 12:20PM GMT
Classification: Query
Modern-day research - today married people are from different ends of the country. Yes, some of those "no"-answers were probably not so in reality but when do you stop thinking you're "släkt"? Even in the Bible it's no more than "unto the third and fourth generation", although I believe the Catholic church at one time counted seven generations...

Ingela
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