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Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

MartinAbrams27 (View posts)
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 6:22PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 31 Jul 2006 7:56PM GMT
Surnames: Abrams, Abraham
There are several references to Henry Abraham/Abrams of Turkeyfoot, who was born in Wales in 1720 and died 108 yrs later in PA.
His ancestry is listed as
Henry, b 1706 married Sidwell (??)
Henry, b 1680
Jeffrey, b1640
All three were born in Crowan, Cornwall which means our line is really Cornish, rather than Welsh, depending upon where Sidwell was from.

My question revolves around what is the source of this info. Everyone seems to have the same info, but without any sources. How do we know this? I would really like to know the source of this information. THANK YOU if you can help.

I have spent a fair amount of Internet time going through available Crowan/Cornwall records and have not found this line. Most of the information on-line is after 1720 so its still quite possible. There were a lot of Abrahams in Crowan, Cornwall and surrounding parishes, and several were named Henry, so it is a very common name. So is Michael Abraham and that name does not seem to be very common in our family.

I did find a reference to a baptism for Henry in 1723 in Crowan, which means he would have to be born in Wales in 1720 and then return to Crowan 3 years later to be christened. I dont know if that is a reasonable custom in those years or not..
--------------
I also plan to start a DNA project soon. I would like six people to start with and since I first made this request for volunteers I have gotten about six, so I hope to get going on this soon. Maybe I will buy a test kit out of my IRS refund. This project might be useful in linking the Cornwall Abrahams to the Abrams from Turkeyfoot.



bye

Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

JillAbram58 (View posts)
Posted: 28 Mar 2004 11:48PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 31 Jul 2006 7:56PM GMT
Glad to hear the DNA project is still in the works...don't anticipate a refund this year but would be happy to help $ if any volunteer is hindered by $...Also, My father agreed to participate...line of thomas through gabriel...would love to get some from other established lines of Henry to firm up the Thomas connection....Jill Abram

Re: Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

suns4 (View posts)
Posted: 8 Mar 2013 5:46PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Abrams, Abraham
Martin,
I am of the same line I believe. I have tracked family through the roster to Henry R. Abraham b. Ireland or Wales 1720 and died 1828 Turkeyfoot, PA. I have the same problem after that, as I show Henry 1703 m. to Elizabeth or Dinah Sidwell. Then to Henry 1680 m. Mary Ava Sidwell. And then Jeffrey 1640 m. unknown. I cannot find any sources as well, only from people's listed trees. I am still awaiting the results of my DNA. I saw your post was edited in 2006 and wondered if you have since found any corresponding evidence. Did your six people for the project end up being related? Is yours on file that I might be able to match mine to? I have found this all very confusing once the tree entered England.

On my searching I found Mary Ava Sidwell.(1690-1747)but as I found her parents the confusion became worse. The only source information I found corraborating this information I found listed in others trees was: John Abraham marriage to Jennet Ingham and Lawrence Abraham marriage.

The parents of Mary Ava Sidwell were William Abraham (1685-1719) and Margery Ball (1685-1720).
John Abraham (1650-1692) m. Jennet Ingham (1640-1672).
Richard Abraham (1617-1665) m. Elizabeth Wignall (1618-1669).
John Abraham (1585-1634) m. Ann Blundell (1582-1634).
Lawrence Abraham (1560-1622) m. Elizabeth Howard (1563-1646).
Edmund Abraham (1530-?) m. Unknown Sibell (1535-?). Then Richard Edmund Abraham (1485-?)m. Sarah Unknown (1499-?).

Richard Abraham (1440-?)m. Elizabeth Unknown.
Thomas Abraham (1400-?)m. Unknown.
Unknown Abraham (1372-?).

Does this mean Mary Ava Sidwell was married into the same Abraham family line that later Elizabeth or Dinah married into or were they differing Abraham lines?
Thanks,
Sunday Abrams Petto
suns4@aol.com

Re: Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

MartinAbrams369 (View posts)
Posted: 8 Mar 2013 11:12PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello Sunday

In the Abrams DNA project we had several years of rapid growth. Like many DNA projects, we have had some slowdown. We are still growing by about 10% a year. We have 60-70 members.

I am the volunteer Abrams administrator. These are our results so far.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/abrams/default.aspx?sect...

They are divided up in to about a dozen defined groups and several individuals.

The Original six people or so belonged to several different groups (Turkeyfoot PA, Hempstead/Long Island, Laurens/Newberry SC etc).


We have had several "surprises" so the DNA results have been very valuable in confirming relationships and in sometimes refuting assumed lineages.

Sunday, where did you take your DNA test? The ones above all tested with FTDNA and that is where the Abrams project resides.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regarding Henry Sr, 1720-1828, you have a lot more Sidwell information than anyone else I have seen. I hope there are sources or other documentation.

About a dozen of our DNA testers descend from Henry Sr of Turkeyfoot, including myself. About 11 or so descend from Thomas and one from Henry Junior. We believe (and the DNA agrees) that Thomas and Henry were probably sons of Henry Sr, but there is no paper trail.

Even the 1720-1828 age span is probably just copied over and over.

This is a very interesting lineage of Abrahams back to the 1400s. I have not seen it before. Unfortunately we have not been to match DNA to anyone prior to Henry Sr. So no DNA connection back to Wales or Cornwall or England or wherever.

So for the Turkeyfoot group above and most of the other Abrams groups, it would be very helpful to get an Abrams from the British Isles or the Netherlands or Germany or Eastern Europe to confirm out links to the "Mother Country".

And...right now (March 2013) there is a 12 Marker DNA sale on at FTDNA for just $39 (regularly $99).

Re: Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

suns4 (View posts)
Posted: 9 Mar 2013 4:51PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 9 Mar 2013 5:15PM GMT
Surnames: Abrams
Hi Martin

I did the autosomal DNA through Ancestry DNA project, testing that covers all, so I am hoping to get complete results for both maternal and paternal bloodlines. I will have to find out how to make sure the results get to you. I am considering doing the DNA testing through FTDNA as well just to separate the surname line. I wish I would have posted here sooner and saved myself some money.

Well, I guess that's out. I didn't pay attention that the sale test is male only. I will keep an eye out for sales on other testing now that I have saved the webpage. I will continue to look into how to link my DNA to your project, and please let me know if you are already aware of how to do it.

Happy Hunting
Sunday

Re: Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

kdberte (View posts)
Posted: 1 Jan 2014 12:49AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Abrams Abrahams
Hi all. I'm a bit late to this discussion. I'm of the camp that believes the 1720 and 1828 dates have just been repeated over and over with no real proof. Some years back I was part of an online mail group researching this line and as far as I know Henry Sr's birthdate was speculation based on family word of mouth and ages of his children. Basically, someone talked to someone from Genuki and asked for possible matches from the 1720's and the Cornwall one was the only one that matched.

A few months ago, I found some mortuary notices in historic newspapers that mentioned the death of a Henry Abrams, aged 102, from Chillicothe, Ohio in 1804. This would agree with the fact that his sons Reuben and Henry Jr. were part of a group that first settled Chillicothe in 1796. How many 102 year old Henry Abrams were most likely living in Chillicothe in 1804? Only one I can think of.

Re: Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

MartinAbrams369 (View posts)
Posted: 1 Jan 2014 1:27AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 2 Jan 2014 7:07AM GMT
Hello KD

I am aware of the mortuary notice about Henry, 102, of Chillicothe. I think I have a copy somewhere. I think it was published in at least two papers, neither in OH.

I tend to agree with you. There is no proof at all for either date of 1720 to 1828 and I dont think there is any likely candidate in the 1820 census Just because they are in 200+ online databases, doesnt make it correct.

I do have several questions because I think 1720-1828 fits better in some ways. If Henry Sr was born in 1702, and the first son, Henry Jr, was born in 1747, that would mean he was 45 when he started a family.

Also, who was the Henry in the many militia records of the 1770s and 1780s? Hard to imagine a 1702-born man being the Capt. But if Henry Jr was this officer, why was this not mentioned in the many bios of him written in the 1800s, including one by a son-in-law? Nor is his grave recognized as that of a veteran And why no mention of Henry Sr in any bio of Henry Jr or Reuben, who were both respected judges in Chillicothe or nearby areas?

There is a semi-official record of Henry Sr being buried in Turkeyfoot, but it is rather vague. And his gravesite was washed away in a flood apparently.

DAR records are useless as their earlier records are just pre-Internet copy and paste jobs with no reliable sources. And their records do not distinguish between Henry Sr and Jr.

So I tend to go with the 1804 obituary notice, because thats very hard to refute, But I still have those nagging questions.

~~~~~~~~~~

On a similiar vein, there is no proof that Henry Sr married Rhoda Spencer, Or that Thomas married Jemima Friend or that Jemima was the daughter of Andrew Friend who married Josepha Drake.

I do, however, have numerous, albeit small DNA matches to members of the Friend and Drake and other families further back. So that might be possible.

I do not have any DNA matches to any Spencers that appear to be connected to Rhoda or her larger Spencer family. That doesnt mean we are not related, only that I have yet to see any DNA evidence. Still looking

We have done extensive YDNA testing for this Abrams family, including a member of the Abrams/Monk branch. And we have several Abrams who have tested for autosomal DNA testing as well.

Through YDNA we have strongly linked Thomas to Henry Sr. And to a "fingers crossed" extent to the Friends and Drakes with autosomal DNA

KD, please contact me at abramsml@yahoo.com if you are interested in the DNA testing. Or you can post here. We can always use one more.

Re: Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

kdberte (View posts)
Posted: 1 Jan 2014 2:02AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 1 Jan 2014 2:03AM GMT
Surnames: Abrams
Martin, that was a quick reply, lol. I wasn't expecting one so soon. I have a total of 5 mortuary notices. None from the Scioto Gazette, either.

Yes, Henry Sr would have to be almost 45 when starting a family...not unheard of and certainly depends on the age of his wife. I have not been able to locate a definitive passenger list with Henry Sr on it and have often wondered if he may have been an indentured servant for some years like so many were. His early years (prior to 1765 or so) are truly an enigma!

There are actually several Abrams/Monk connections from the Lawrence/Jackson Ohio areas. My gr-grandparents were Henry Abrams and Agnes Monk.

Tell me more about what's going on with the DNA project. I haven't been much involved because I can only contribute mtdna. I might be able to convince one of my male Abrams first cousins from Ohio, though.

Re: Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

MartinAbrams369 (View posts)
Posted: 1 Jan 2014 2:35AM GMT
Classification: Query
My gf was from Jackson co but he grew up in MO

We could use one of your cousins for Ydna because we do have a minor Thomas / Basil DNA issue.

You personally can contribute by testing via Family Finder autosomal test. That tests for ALL of your kin and we would have to sort out the data but we already have about a dozen Abrams testers so we know what we are looking for. Most are female but we are not looking at mtDNA. So consider Family Finder for yourself.

Re: Henry Abraham/Abrams Wales > PA

kdberte (View posts)
Posted: 1 Jan 2014 3:07AM GMT
Classification: Query
So excited that I can participate! I will check for sales in the next couple of months and post back here.
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